Sync Can't Work!

[paulc]

Just ran into an issue I could swear I have seen discussed, but I can't find that discussion. I was in the process of uploading a site and tried to use the sync function to move the changed files after my initial upload. EXCEPT it wouldn't work because the "time" the files were tagged on the server was not the modified time of the file but the time it was uploaded AND it was offset by 4 hours in the future (which I think is the current offset time from me to GMT/UTC).

So it seemed no matter what I did, all server files were always "newer" than the files I had which were definitely "newer" than the ones on the server. AND the only UI control I see is a "maintain modification dates of transferred files" in the Transfers tab.

So I am double whammied (British term, right-o?) Still, I could swear this didn't happen a while back, I can remember sync's that went exactly as they should go.

[JD]

Is this an FTP server or SFTP server?

There was a bug (fixed in 1.6.1b0) which would offset the datestamps incorrectly, but only for SFTP connections.

For an FTP server, do you have 'Use MDTM' enabled in the Bookmark? If so, do you have 'UTC date stamps' enabled too?

Other than that, check the Time Offset setting in the Sync window - is it correct? Is 'Automatic time offset detection' enabled?

Sorry for so many questions.

[paulc]

Straight FTP server (commercial web hosting outfit).

Ah, must have blanked on bookmarks having unique options... I enabled Use MDTM in them bookmark I use (as well as the upload droplet) but didn't enable "Use UTC" as I'm still used to the 12 hour clock.

Sync not withstanding, getting the date/time to be the same needs to happen first. So after I changed the MDTM thing in the bookmark, I deleted a folder and re-uploaded it from scratch. Again, what was uploaded seemed to take on several odd characteristics (I sent you an image to the support number).

So let's take this painful step by step if you don't mind!

[JD]

Was MDTM enabled before or did you just enable it because I mentioned it? It's meant to allow you to set the date/time of server files, however MDTM is not supported by many servers. Does your server support it?

'Use UTC' is nothing to do with 12 or 24 clock. It changes the way that the modification date/time is set for server items. You probably need to enable this if you enabled MDTM, but it does vary from server to server and there is no way of knowing in advance.

Obviously, yes, the date/time needs to be synched between Mac and Server before anything.

So, I ask again - Do you have 'Automatic time offset detection' enabled?

[JD]

Sorry, I re-read your post - I can see you enabled MDTM after I mentioned it. That would imply that your time offset is set incorrectly and/or you don't have 'Automatically detect time offset' enabled.

[paulc]

The time offset listed in the bookmark IS set correctly to 4 hours "ahead" (of course, part of the issue is that the GMT offset changes twice each year, but that's  another issue). And it has been enabled all along. I added "Use UTC" in addition to MDTM, deleted a folder and re-uploaded it. And in true nerd fashion, I even quit and re-launched Yummy after changing the bookmark!

Setting UTC seems to do nothing. Nothing is being shown in UTC. And I really do NOT want to have to deal with UTC!!

After tweaking the settings and re-uploading I see files showing a 4 hour offset (ahead of my time) and folders showing time of upload.

So back to the drawing board... I turn OFF the bookmark's "detect time offset." Delete and re-upload the same folder. Re-upload the folder, same thing, all files are listed 4 hours ahead while folders are listed as of time of upload.

Ah-ha, light bulb goes on. Ahead or behind is a function of what one considers the primary time... logically I am correct in saying UTC is ahead of ME, but from a UTC "perspective" I am "behind" it. So I changed the time offset setting to behind from ahead, made sure it was enabled, and deleted and re-uploaded the same folder. SAME THING, files on the server are listed as 4 hours AHEAD of my files times.

Not sure what to try next...

[JD]

Ok let's get this straight - the 'Use UTC' setting has nothing to do with date/time display in the listings. It changes the way that the date/time value is sent to the server when uploading a file. Let's put MDTM and UTC aside for now because they're just confusing the issue.

Do the following:

1. In your Bookmark, disable MDTM
2. In your Bookmark, enable 'Automatically detect time offset'
3. Save the changes
4. Connect to your Bookmarked server
5. Upload one file

I would expect that the date/time of the uploaded file will be displayed in Yummy as the time that you uploaded it (in your local time). ie at 10:56 am my local time I finished uploading a file. I would expect to see 10:56 am as the date modified time of the uploaded file in the server listing.

What do you see when you try this?

[paulc]

Ah, before I read your last post, I noticed that the ahead/behind I HAD set mysteriously changed. I set it for "behind," saved and re-opened the bookmark and it was still set for "behind." BUT after I uploaded, I again checked the bookmark and it was changed on it's own back to "ahead."

So I tossed and recreated the bookmark. BINGO, files NOW seem to be correctly time stamped, matching my times. My "new" bookmark has 4 hour ahead enabled, passive and use MDTM enabled.

I did an edit to a local html file and did the sync and it WORKS AS EXPECTED.

Sure seems like the original bookmark was the issue. Which means I probably should re-do the droplet as well... the moral of the story seems to be that bookmarks can look correctly set, but cause issues.

NB: eek my toolbar arrangement is back at default, I should have done a image of the old one so I could  set it the same... oh well, not a big deal!

[JD]

While I'm really glad to hear that you've sorted out the issue, it leaves some mystery behind. My test steps were meant to resolve this, but I guess we'll never know now... did you try my test steps?

I really don't think that your conclusion is correct - Bookmarks can't display correct settings then behave differently. The time offset and the ahead/behind setting will get set automatically if you have the 'Automatically detect time offset' option enabled. The only other way is if you changed it by mistake.

Regarding the toolbar, the configuration can either be per Bookmark, or a single global one depending on your Preferences setting. With the former preference, a new Bookmark will take on the default toolbar configuration.

[paulc]

Sorry, I had done the things I detailed in my last post before I read those suggestions!

Indeed, it was the "automatically" that "reset" it to "ahead" from my manually setting it "behind." I suspect I missed it because I saw editable  fields and a check box and used them (I probably thought "one needs the checkbox to enable the manual settings"). But this is a side diversion, it happened well after I noticed the original issue.

However, I very much HAD done what you detailed. The original bookmark HAD auto enabled and did NOT use the MDTM function. It "failed." Had been that way for a while. It failed again when I enabled MDTM. Only re-creating the bookmark seemed to solve the issue. It was after I noticed the original issue that I tried it with auto detect disabled.

Being the curious one, now that I'm into it, I wonder HOW you "automatically" detect? Does this mean that it reads the OSes date/time and offset from GMT? That should mean it's immune to the DST/EST thing here in the US, so no matter when the clock moves forward next spring, the OS will know the offset moves from 4 to 5 hours.

So I'm still not totally sure why the "detection" is actually needed. Is it because an ftpd  server works strictly in UTC, no matter what it's "local time" happens to be?

In any case, I hope I livened your day up JUST a tad...

[JD]

Ah ok, you're forgiven

The automatic time offset detection feature works by sending a small temporary file to the server - it can then fetch the modification date/time of the file on the server and compare it to the time on your Mac at which the upload completed. This results in the time offset value. And yes, it should be quite robust as far as DST changes are concerned.

There is no written standard on the directory list format given by an FTP server. As a result, there are very many widely differing varieties of listing format. One side effect of this is there is also no standard for the value of the date field either.

The reason the offset is needed is two-fold:

1. To display the date/time of Server items as though they were in the same time zone as you. This makes it easy to see which is newer when browsing, for example.

2. For use duing Synchronization to correctly determine which file is newer (Mac or Server) and upload or download accordingly

Do you by any chance still have the original Bookmark? I'd love to take a look and compare it to your new one. Then I could see exactly what the difference was

[spacific]

About your comment:

Regarding the toolbar, the configuration can either be per Bookmark, or a single global one depending on your Preferences setting. With the former preference, a new Bookmark will take on the default toolbar configuration.

where is this setting in the preferences?  This is what I have wanted for some time, as having to set up the toolbar how I like it each time I create a new bookmark is a nuisance.  I have looked through the preferences but can't see it. Mind you there are many so I could easily be missing it. Presumably under "Interface"?

I am hoping that the global setting can be pre-specified so that in essence I get my own default set of items.

[JD]

I'm referring to the 'Independent window settings' checkbox in the Interface panel of the Preferences.

When this is un-checked, the global toolbar config is used for all FTP browser windows.
When this is checked, each FTP browser connected via a Bookmark has its own toolbar config and un-bookmarked FTP browsers will use the global toolbar config.

Bear in mind that it's not only the toolbar config which is affected by this setting - it also affects:

• Window size and position
• Drawers open/closed and sizes
• Transcript hidden/shown
• Mac view hidden/shown
• Column/List view
• List view column arrangements and sizes

and probably others that I forgot

You can't pre-configure the toolbar config. The only way is to configure it from an FTP Browser, then subsequent FTP Browser windows will have the same config.

[paulc]

Do I have the original bookmark? But of COURSE, I actually DO back stuff up. BUT I could almost guarentee you they'll be identical! Could be I totally lost my mind, but I DID send you an image of bunged up time/dates! Anyway, I can see how I had the toolbar set up in the old one once I get it out.

They'll be on their way later today.

Ooops, I looked at my backed up March 2007 version. Auto detect was turned off. I have NO idea how that happened, I doubt I actually disabled it. Sync DID work correctly in the past. Of course, when I was testing the whole scenario, I DID enable auto-detect and still had issues/problems. More than once.

Oh well.

I dunno, I enabled auto-detect and MDTM to the "old" bookmark, and now IT behaves correctly. Of course, while I was going crazy yesterday, I did the exact same things, but did NOT get the results I got today.

[JD]

Excellent - I'll look forward to examining those There must be a difference I would think... we'll see

I did receive the image, thank you, but without knowing what your settings were exactly at that point then it's not any help unfortunately. All I could see was that the dates/times were incorrect.

If the time offset specified was already correct then it wouldn't matter if Auto-detect was on or off.